Finding Strength in Hard Moments

Sometimes the hardest conversations are the ones that help us grow the most.

Jess and Abby continue sharing their story, reflecting on the early years after Abby moved back home. They talk about early mornings bussing and walking to school, the messy years of figuring life out, and the moment Jess taught herself how to drive just to create a better life for them. The conversation then shifts into a more difficult chapter as Abby opens up about becoming a big sister, growing up with an inconsistent father and learning about his struggles with addiction. Abby shares what it was like navigating that relationship, including the moment she saw him in court and finally spoke her truth.

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Transcript

Speaker 0:14

Hey, it's Jess. Hey, it's Abby. Welcome back to another episode of the Like Mother, Like Daughter Podcast. Good morning. How are you? I'm great. Yeah, you must be. You got to skip school for this. Thank God. All right, so let's get into it. In the last episode, we talked about when Abby was born and a little bit of the first year of her life. But the years after that is, you know, really when things started to change, when I was trying to figure life out while raising a child. And it was kind of around the time that Abby started school, um, is when we were living together full-time. But there was still a lot of stuff that Abby and myself were trying to figure out. Um, one of the things being, you know, Abby growing up without having her dad around very much, and also trying to understand my relationships. Um, so Abby, do you remember when I brought you back to live with me um full time? We had that apartment in Fairview, and we were living next door to and his daughter. What was her name? Do you remember? Cl. That's it. And um, so I remember we used to wake up at the crack of dawn because I would have to get you ready for school. We would have to get on the bus. And I remember taking you to um your before and after school program. So I would take you to Magic Beings for right when they opened. And I remember we would be sitting there waiting for them to get there at 7 a.m. And you were like five years old, like so little. And it was hard, like getting up in the morning, being on the bus before it was even light out, and then I think I worked eight to I must have worked eight to four at McDonald's because I had to have you at Magic Beings for when they opened, and then I have to walk back to the bus stop, get back on the bus, and then go back, go to work. Um so it was just a lot, and then I'd get off work, get on the bus, go get you from Magic Beings, get you on the bus, and then we would go. I don't remember busing. You don't? I I don't remember busing at all ever. That's crazy. Do you remember when I bought my first car? Yes. The green one? Yes. A little quick story about the car. So I had my beginners like three times, and I let them expire every single time because no one would take me driving. Like no one with a full license would give me the time of day to take me and teach me how to drive. So I would get my beginners and then they would expire, and then I would get them again, so on. Um, but I remember I was so tired of walking you here, walking you there, busting you here, bussing you there. So I remember, I think it was like 2016, I got a tax return. And I remember saying, you know what, I'm gonna buy a car and I'm just gonna drive it until and teach myself how to drive. And obviously that was very irresponsible of me driving without a license, but I bought a, I think it was like a 2003 Toyota Corolla. And my neighbor, the one that we talked about earlier, um, he was an angel. He registered and put the car in his name for me, and he would take me driving sometimes. Like he had a full license, and he would take me driving sometimes, but I needed to get around, I needed to learn, and I knew that if I didn't and I let my license expire again, it was gonna be a whole ordeal. So I drove that 2003 Toyota Corolla for like three months illegally and with no license. And then luckily I did have a friend that when I went to go book my road test, um, they let me use their car for the road test. Thank God I did that because looking back, I know it wasn't smart, but if I would never would have done that, I probably wouldn't have my license today. And honestly, that's kind of when our lives really started to change and get better because we had a car, we had so much more freedom. Like getting groceries was so much more easy with a car, obviously. Like busing you to the grocery store, busing with our groceries. Oh, it was it was exhausting. But I don't remember busing at all. That's good then. Do you remember anything from them times like in the mornings or like after school or anything? I remember when we would have to walk to school, and I remember like it was snowing so bad one time, and we were walking to school, and then I was like, I wish like we didn't have to walk, and you were like, Yeah, me too, babe, like it's okay. I think I remember this because I think that's when we moved to Melrose. Mm-hmm. Because I remember we lived a little bit further away from the school, and that's when we were busing. And then shortly after that, we moved to Melrose, which was walking distance of the school, and then it wasn't long after that that I got a light that I got my car and got my driver's license. Oh. Yeah. All right, so let's switch gears a little bit. Um, I mentioned earlier that, you know, something that was a little hard for us to figure out was Abby, you know, growing up without her dad around very much. And I just kind of wanted to ask you like to share your thoughts and your feelings about that. So I'm gonna ask you a couple of questions, maybe if that makes it easier for you. Yeah. Okay, what are your earliest memories of you and your dad? My earliest memories of me and my dad were I think I was like little, like I was probably like six or seven, six, seven. Um but anyway, I was probably like six or seven, and I remember I was talking to myself. I was driving like this little car for like toddlers that I like to get in. It was and I was driving it, and I was talking to myself. I think I was either singing, but I was just talking to myself, and he was like, Who are you talking to? And I was like, Myself, and then he was like, Oh, you're just like your mom, and I was like, Pardon? But that's it. That's the only memory. Well, that's a good memory though. Yeah. Did it ever feel confusing to you when he wasn't around? Yes, all the time, because when I would have like my Christmas concerts or like like any school event that like I got to perform, he was never there. I was just like, Where's my dad? It's not a good feeling, right? Because you look out into the crowd and you see I saw all my friends' dads, and like when my friends would talk about their dads, I'd be like, that's normal. Like how do you feel about that looking back? It breaks my heart. Yeah, it breaks it breaks my heart for you, honestly. But not for me now, like for my little self it does, but now I don't care. Yeah. You become like numb to it after a while, right? Yeah, like I had the ring that he gave me on for like months, like for almost two years, because I was like, this is the only thing I have of him. But then I was like, f this, I'm taking it off. And I don't know where it went. I don't know, I don't, I lost it. Well, whatever. It's his loss anyway. I hope you know that. What did you think when you saw other kids with their dads? When I saw other kids with their dads, I would always get like jealous. Like I was confused, I was jealous, I was like upset. I was like confused because I was like, wait, is it like normal or like is it rare? Does only some kids have their dads, or does like most kids? Most kids have their dads, because like where's mine? That would be hard, especially as a little kid, because it's hard for kids to understand things and yeah, so that must have been confusing for you. Yeah. Were there times that you wish that he was around more? Yeah, because like he didn't really see me grow up. He saw little bits of me growing up, like he didn't watch me grow up, he saw little bits. Like he would come in and out at different times in my life. I tried to either have him involved all of the time or just not at all, because it was easier for you to just not have him around than have him be very inconsistent, like bouncing in and out, in and out, because obviously it's not good to have your dad in your life like one week and then not for another month or two. But I feel like every single time I would allow him to come back in, he would try to convince me that he's gonna be different this time. He wants to be involved, he loves you, and blah, blah, blah. And then I would let him come back in and he would be good for like a little bit, and then he would like disappear again for God knows how long. And so it was really hard for me because I didn't know how to answer the questions that you had. Like I didn't know how to tell you like he's not here. I remember at one point I told you that he was working in in British Columbia. Like I told you he worked on the other side of the country because I just didn't want to hurt your feelings and I didn't know how to tell you, and I didn't I didn't know what to do. British Columbia. Yeah, I said he worked on the other side of the country. Wait, what do you remember like me asking you like where my dad is or like anything about my dad? Because I don't remember asking you anything. I remember like sometimes you would, but then I would just say, like, he's at work, like he works far away, like that kind of thing. What would I say? Can we call you would ask me if we could call him? Like you would say, like, can we call daddy? And I would say, like, daddy's working away, like his phone, the time zones are different, you know. When you wouldn't see him for so long and then you would see him again, do you remember how you felt then, or do you remember what it was like? Are you gonna cry? I'm sorry, do you wanna stop? No. Wait, ask the question again. So when you wouldn't see him for a really long time and then he would come back around, what did that feel like for you? Like, do you remember how it felt, or do you remember like what it was like? I don't remember what it was like, but I remember having questions like to myself. I would be like, why where is he going? Like, where did he go and why is he coming back all of a sudden with like gifts? Because his way of apologizing was buying me stuff. Yeah. He did do that a lot, eh? Yeah. Every every time he would come back, he would always have gifts for you. Yeah, and I'd be like, that's why, like, when I say like when I got older, I used him for his money. I would only talk to him, like, because I was like, that's all he's good for. Yeah, because that's what he did that whole life. All I've known my whole life is his money. Yeah. So I was just like, I would only talk to him sometimes for him to buy me stuff. Honestly, because that's all he's giving me. That's the that's literally the only good thing about him was that he would buy me anything I want. Yeah. Anything. Yeah. So I was like, if he's not gonna be a father, might as well just like use him for his money. Honestly, I don't usually condone that, like using someone for their money, but in this case, I'll make an exception because he deserves it. Yeah, like now, during all of this, did you ever feel like you couldn't talk to me about your dad? I didn't know how. I didn't know how to talk. I was confused. Like it confused me. I didn't know how to like I feel like I would have these thoughts, but then I would just be like, no, but it's normal. Like I would literally gaslight myself into thinking it's normal. But then that's why I was so confusing when I would see other kids with their dads, because I would be like, wait, so it's not normal, but then I'd just be like, no, because it's normal in my life. Aw. I wish that I would have maybe talked to you a little bit more about it, but I also didn't know how to talk about it. I didn't know how to bring it up. I didn't want to damage you and hurt your feelings. And I still to this day don't know how to um say certain things or bring things up without not damaging you, but like hurting you or making you feel a type of way because I know that it's all about the way that you say things and the way that you ask questions and the way that you um and it leaves like an impact on you, right? And not just you, but anybody in general. So I wish that I would have known a little bit more. I wish I would have been more comfortable talking to you about that stuff because it breaks my heart to know that you felt so confused and you were like you said, you were gaslighting yourself when you were a kid, and like it's just it's heart, it's absolutely heartbreaking, honestly. Obviously, like during the younger years of you, you know, not understanding why your dad wasn't around and all that stuff. It was probably also really confusing for you too that I was dating women and not men. Because I'm sure that there wasn't very many people in your class or in your school who had two moms rather than a mom and a dad. What did you think or feel when you realized like my mom has a girlfriend and not a boyfriend? Like, was that weird for you? How did you how did that make you feel? I didn't really feel like mad or like confused. I was just kind of like, like it was obviously like different, but I wasn't like mad or like I literally just always told myself it's normal because it's my life. Yeah. That's literally what I always told myself when I was little. I'd be like, it's normal. Honestly, I think that's probably the best way that you could go about it because it is normal. It it is normal nowadays, right? Like a lot of people have same-sex relationships, same-sex parents, and it's a lot more normal now than it used to be. Um, but did you ever feel like different from other kids because of it? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but it wasn't in a bad way. No. Cause I remember everyone would be like, oh, because your mom's gay, like you're gonna be gay, and I would actually like shut that down. Like I would shut that sh so down. Yeah, that is so funny. Like, I remember I yelled in a lot of kids' faces. Kids are so funny when it comes to that stuff. That is such a typical child thing to say, like, oh, Abby, your mom's gay, so you're gonna be gay too. Like, actually, no, I actually love boys, thank you very much. Um, did you ever feel because I would dated women that you were like missing anything or anything? Yeah, I felt like I was missing a father figure. Yeah. But then I would always be like, okay, but I have granddad. Yeah, that's good though. Or like Uncle Gage. So, like, it was like Yeah, like you always had a male role model to look up to, even if it wasn't a father figure. Yeah. Well, I'm more looking at Uncle Gage as my brother. Okay, like I have one story from that time, but it's like kind of off topic, but I just remember it like it's like a core memory, kind of, because it's like how I gone to Elf on the Shelf and stuff like that. Okay, I want to hear it. Because I would always watch YouTube videos about Elf on the Shelf, and I remember telling you one night that I really, really want Elf on the Shelf, and I was like, why does every kid have an Elf on a Shelf but not me? Am I not good? And so I wake up one morning and there's like it was like hanging from the ceiling. I think it was a scarf or something. But I go out in my bedroom and you're still asleep, and I just see this like gnome stuffed animal with an elf, like it was like dressed in an elf, but it was a gnome, and I was like, mommy! I was like, Mom, I got an elf. And I was like, but it's not actually an elf. And then you were like, Oh, that's so good, babe. Like, you know, like this is just like a different elf on the shelf. And I was like, Oh, yeah. Okay, I want to tell you a quick story about that. So when you told me that, I felt so guilty that I didn't have an elf on the shelf for you already. So I was like, okay, I need to come up with something that like we need to make this work for her for tonight until I can get her one. So I remember like finding the closest looking elf Christmas decoration that I had and making it, pretending it to be an elf on the shelf until I could get you one. And I knew that you were like, Mom, this is not it. Like, this is like, what is wrong with my elf? Like, you were so ped about this elf on the shelf, but I didn't want you to feel like left out or that you weren't good enough or anything. So I just did what I had to do. And then I remember when like I actually went and got you a real elf on the shelf. I like actually was so happy when I saw that elf on the shelf. Even if it wasn't the real one? No, no, no, no. The real one. Yeah, when you got me your real one. And I remember I was just, I already have my name set. I already had my name set. Peppermint jingles. I already had it set, bro. Like, I was locked and loaded for this. That is so funny. Okay, so around this time, there was something else that happened that kind of changed things for Abby too. Um, life was really complicated back then, you know, your dad still wasn't around very much. And then we found out that he was having another baby. Abby was still really little when all this happened. I think she was like five or six years old when we found this out. So it wasn't something that I told her right away. I think I was still trying to process it all myself. But do you remember when I introduced when we introduced you to your little brother? I don't remember exactly like me like meeting him, but I remember it was my birthday party. Yeah. It was my birthday party. It was your sixth birthday party. Yeah. Do you remember where we were? The bowling alley. Yeah, we were. Yeah. Yeah. I remember so your dad was begging me to let you meet him. And at first I was skeptical because of the situation. I'm not gonna get too much into the detail, but Abby's little brother's mom was my friend, and it was kind of a messy situation. Um, so I was kind of worried about bringing that into Abby's life at first, but I really wanted her to have a relationship with her little brother, so I agreed to letting them bring him to her sixth birthday party, and he was almost one at that point because his birthday is like two weeks after Abby's. Um, so he was just shy of one year old. And um, yeah, I let them bring them to your birthday party, and it was actually so cute. You guys clicked right away, I feel like. Yeah, because I was like, this is my little brother. And I remember like literally when I first met him, I like loved him. Like I wanted to spend every second with him because I loved him. Like, there's a picture of me and him, and like he's like, he's little and he's like has his hands like this, and I'm like looking down. And it's so cute. It's my favorite picture of us. What did you think about becoming a big sister? How did it feel? I had mixed emotions. Like, genuinely, I remember when you told me I was crying, I was happy, I was like, I wanted a little sister, and then I was like, no, like I love, like, I want a little brother. Like, like I just had mixed emotions. Did you ever think about like why did my dad have another baby when he is not being a father to me? Yes. I was just confused, like, I just didn't understand anything, but like I also did, but I didn't. Yeah, you were just kind of like going with the flow. Yeah, I was just going with the flow, but I would also be like, he's having another kid. But then I remember feeling like, okay, like now he's gonna be in my brother's life more than he's gonna be in my life, and he was. Yeah. He very much was. Did that bother you? Yes. I hated it. I also, when I was little, like I had like hate for my brother in a way, but not in a bad way, but I hated the fact that he got my dad and I didn't. Yeah. Because it was like I was here first. Yeah, that's very valid to feel that way. I'm sure that's how every kid feels that they don't have their dad in their life and then when they have another child. Like, that's so fair. I didn't hate him because I loved him. Like he was like my twin in him, but like I hated. You just hated the fact that he got to spend more time with your dad than you do. Yeah, yeah. I'm sorry that you feel that. That breaks my heart. Well, I don't feel that anymore. It was really emotional. It was a lot, it was messy. I knew that you loved your brother more than anything, and I loved when you guys got to spend time with each other, and that's why I more than anything wanted to put, you know, the differences and the drama aside, and you know, be able to co-parent with his mom so that you guys could have a relationship that I wanted you guys to have. I wanted you guys to have a good relationship because me and my little brother have a really good relationship. We have different dads, and we have the best relationship, and I wanted that for you so bad. And I felt like maybe you don't have a relationship with your dad, but maybe you can still have a good relationship with your brother. I do have a good relationship with my brother. So, what's your favorite thing now about having a little brother? I love I just fill him in on everything. Like when I don't have anyone to talk to, just call him. Yeah. And like what do you guys talk about now? My boyfriends, my drama, like everything. Does he listen? Is he a good listener? Yeah, and he'll like he'll be serious. He'll be like, I hate him. I hate him so much. Or he'll be like, Yeah, he's good for you, or he'll be like, No, Abby, no. That's awesome. And he's getting older to the point where now, like, he's funny. He is funny, like, he cracks me up. Yeah, he is. He's a good kid. We have the same humor, so it's like perfect. Yeah. How did you like keep that secret of like my dad not being there and like him like working in British Columbia for so long? Um, it was really difficult, but you were young and I didn't know how much you really understood. And to keep you from just feeling like neglected and feeling like he wasn't there because he didn't want to be, I just thought it was easier for me to just tell you like he's not in the province. He's working outside, he's like, he works on the on the other side of the country. Um and in my heart and in my head, I thought I was doing the right thing because I was trying to protect you. Um, so it was actually quite easy, even though it was hard watching you go through it and knowing the truth. It was really hard, but protecting you and doing what I had to do to protect you in that moment was. Really easy. Yeah, because like I'd rather you tell me that when I was little than be like, oh, he's just like a piece of s basically. Yeah, I didn't want to do that to you. I knew I would tell you everything when you were old enough to know. And and I also kind of knew that you would figure it out for yourself. I did. I figured it out. I knew it. And then as I got older and I started learning about and like all of that, I would hear about other people in our family and stuff. I would be like, okay, that's what's happening. Yeah, that makes more sense. And I just like kept it a secret. Like, even when I started to put the pieces together, I didn't say anything. I just like kept it. I don't remember ever like actually finding out that he was in jail though. Like, I don't remember. I just remember randomly just having jail call like called with him. I'm trying to remember when the first time he went away and what I said, but I think I wish I could remember. But I do remember him calling you and you talking to him a little bit and stuff. And I was proud of him because he was calling you often. It's crazy because that man called you more times when he was in jail than he did when he was out of jail. It's because I feel like he had so much time to think in there and both and reflect on his life. Like But then when he got out, it just like He did good when he got out though for a little bit. You were going to see him all the time and spending time with him again and then it just slowly started to stop. And then he started to get back into like doing bad things again and making bad choices and and then he ended up right back in there again. I just remember going to his house. We would like skateboard, like he taught me how to skateboard. That's how I know how to skateboard. But it was so weird because I didn't feel like I always thought every single time I would like be with him again, I would think like, okay, like this time, like I have my dad, like he's gonna stay, but then it would just happen again, again, and again. And then when I actually gave up was when uh he got out of jail in January that time. And I was like, okay, like this time it's different, like it's actually different. I thought it was different that time too. Same because I was going there every second weekend. I would go there every second weekend, or when I didn't have school, I would go. And I thought it was different. I was like, damn, like he's really like killing this. But and then that's when I gave up. And then the last time I saw him was Christmas 2024. Do you remember when, like, after he got out that time in January, you guys were seeing each other consistently, and then he kind of fell off, and that's when you know things started to go back downhill for him again. Do you remember when all that happened? Yeah. And I remember it was either in May or somewhere around then. I was at my ex's house, and I remember telling my brother next time they called to be like, oh, like call Abby or whatever. And he called me next when I was at my ex's. Yeah. And he I was just saying, like, you're never here, like you just keep doing this to yourself, and like I was like, I'm so disappointed in you, and like you're like losing your chances with me. And he literally said straight up, like it's the j, like it's the alcohol, like I can't control myself when I'm like on them or whatever. And I like my ex was there just patting my back. I was like shaking, like I was getting so mad, and he like he just had to keep like patting my back or like rubbing my head because I was genuinely gonna crash out. And when he said that to me, oh my god, like I felt genuine adrenaline. Like, like I genuinely, I was like, You're like you're a piece of shit. Like, you look sorry. Stop cursing. Sorry. So I just like told him off, and like I just said everything I felt in that moment, and he hung up. He hung up mid-yelling at him. Like, good for you, good for you, honestly. He deserves it, and I'm so glad that you told him how you really feel because it was such a long time coming. Like 14 years of I yeah. And then I wrote him that letter. Yeah. And I sent it, and then I saw him in court, remember, and then he like didn't even look my way. Yeah, Abby, right before her dad went away, she said to me, The next time my dad goes to court, I want you to take me because I want to be the last person he looks in the face before he goes away so that he can think about me while he's in there. Especially after that letter. Yeah, and I at first I didn't know if I was gonna do that or not because I was like, Do I really want to take her into a courtroom and and let her hear all of that? And um I was kind of on the fence about it. I didn't really know. And I was look I looked at all the charges that he was up against, and at this time it was like uh robbery, um car theft, uh a bunch of things. Like he he tried to rob a cleaves, um, he stole a car and got into like a high-speed chase. There was multiple incidents of of things like that. So those were things where, you know, Abby kind of knew about that. It was all public information. So I was like, you know what, I'm gonna do it. So I kept an eye on the court dockets, and I remember watching for his name every day. And when I seen that he was due in court, I kept her home from school and we went to the courthouse. It was hard because I don't know, I wasn't expecting the emotions that I felt when he was sitting up there and she was sitting beside me, and it really it made me mad because I was like, it's his fault that this is happening, but I also felt bad for Abby and it broke my heart for her to have to see her dad in that position. But did that give you the closure that you wanted it to? Yeah. How did you feel when you've seen him walk in through the courtroom and sit down and have to do all that? Like tell me the whole When he walked in, I don't even think he recognized me. Not at first, I don't think. No. And then I remember him saying that he didn't look good. No, he didn't. And I remember when he would when they were reading off the charges, he was laughing. He was sitting there with a smile on his face. What what who in their right mind is gonna like I don't know, he was just laughing. And I remember he wouldn't look me in my eyes, and I kept staring at him. I was just staring at him like, please just look at me. Because I was I was there so that the last person he saw when he went in was me. I wanted him to see me crying. I wanted him to see me like upset, you know, which now I wish I he didn't see me cry because I wish I was like more stronger so that she'd like she's like strong for real. But it's also like he needs to see though, he needs to see that his actions don't just affect him, that they affect everyone around him, everyone in his family, especially his kids, because he should be thinking about you and your brother before he does those things. So the fact that he he seen you upset, I think is a good thing because at least he'll know that what he did didn't just affect him and the victims involved in the incidents, but it affected you too. Yeah. And then I remember the audacity this man had, man. When I tell you when he got up, he said, I'm sorry. What did he say? He was like, I'm sorry, I love you, Abby. Yeah, when he was leaving the courtroom after everything, after his sentencing, he got up and he was walking towards the door, and that's when he made eye contact with you, and he said, I love you, Abby, I'm sorry, or something, and then he left. Like, what? And I remember being like, Who the f I just remember saying that. Like I literally said that out loud. That was a very emotional day. It was. It gave me closure, but I want to see him face to face. Yeah. I want to sit down and have a conversation with him face to face. Yeah, what would you say to him? I don't think I can say it on here. Okay. That's so fair. Well, this episode got a little bit emotional. It was it kind of went down a different path than I was expecting it to. It was a little emotional. However, I just want to say thank you for being so brave and sharing your feelings and your experiences because it is so hard for anybody, let alone a 15-year-old girl, to be so open and so honest and raw about these hard topics and conversations. So I just wanted to say how proud I am of you. And I'm not gonna cry because I just did my makeup, but I love you and I cannot wait for you to thrive and share so much more of your life and your stories and be seen and be heard. Um so anyway, I think we're gonna wrap this episode up now, guys. I want to say thank you again for being here. We actually reached a thousand downloads on our podcast uh just after episode two. So thank you everyone for listening. Every single person who listens to this podcast, I appreciate you. I love you guys. Me too. I hope that you will continue to listen and come on this journey with us. And I'm really looking forward to where um this podcast is gonna take us. So, anyway, thanks again. You can expect another episode of Like Mother Like Daughter every Monday on Apple, Spotify, wherever you listen to your podcast. And follow along. You can follow us on Instagram at like mother like daughter show. You can follow me on TikTok at Just Creelman. Follow me on TikTok at Scrum. Um, anyways, all right, we are out of here. I love you guys. Love you. Bye.